I cannot speak for JW but members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints believe Jesus and Holy Spirit are separate beings, not one being. They act as one, but they are seperare beings. Here's our Article of Faith 1:1:
1 We believe in God, the Eternal Father, and in His Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost.
The idea of the Trinity was developed by sincere people who were opposed to the Arian idea that Jesus was not God.
The reason however Jesus came to Earth was to reveal the Father:
"All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knows the Son, but the Father; neither knows any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him."
(Mat 11:27)
He also came that we may be made to be Son's of God, as he is:
"That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
And the glory which you gave me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me."
(John 17:21-23)
Tell me Jim, what happens to the "Trinity" when there are many Sons come into Glory? (Heb 2:10)
Christ wants us to be his children, one with him:
friendswithgod.substack…
The problem with the doctrine of the "Trinity" is that it has successfully created great division within the Churches, such that many have been willing to murder others who don't believe in it!
I think murder and the spirit of hatred is a little bit worse than having some trouble believing in something that is not in scripture and is very difficult to understand, so much so that the Catholics state that you can't understand it for it is a MYSTERY which just has to be believed without proof.
We are told to prove all things, and hold fast to that which is good.
The trinity can't be proven, and the fruits of it are not good- all it does is cause division and hatred and self-aggrandisement and disrespect of other peoples sincere beliefs.
"Shockingly, among those who identified as Catholics a stunning 91% stated they do not believe in the doctrine of the Trinity" - where does this metric come from? I cannot find anything from George Barna on this. Earlier Barna research from 2007 indicated that 75% of surveyed adult Catholics affirmed belief in the Trinity. The 91% does not resonate with me because the sign of the cross (an affirmation of the Holy Trinity) is very much a Catholic thing.
Wow! Scary statistics! The same survey showed that only 9% of self professed Christians have a Biblical Worldview. That is hardly one out of ten. We need to do better than that.
And herein is the problem, ‘self-identified Christians’. In the scriptures, the word ‘Christian’ appears ONLY 3 times. Only 3, and never in the form of self-proclamation. Honestly, it is not that important of a word, in comparison to so much of what is to be considered truly important.
Jim, You say that everything was created by God the Father. I’m not sure if this is being picky, but the apostle John thought it was important to identify the Son, who was with the Father from the beginning, as the creator. From John 1:1 and following..
1 ¶ In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 He was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made.
4 In him was life, and the life was the light of men.
5 The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it.
6 ¶ There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.
7 He came as a witness, to bear witness about the light, that all might believe through him.
8 He was not the light, but came to bear witness about the light.
Jesus is The Word. “All things were made through [him -> The Word -> the light]”.
Is there another passage that I should look at to see this differently?
I personally am weary of being lumped in with nonbelievers in a so-called “Christian survey”. Calling unbelievers “Christians” is wrong, they’re apostates, enemies of God!
Thank you, Jim. Hopefully, your piece is heartbreaking enough to motivate real Christ followers everywhere to share the truth with those around them in their "corner of the world."
“Shockingly, among those who identified as Catholics a stunning 91% stated they do not believe in the doctrine of the Trinity… far worse than that of the general population. One has to wonder if the Catholic religion’s over-emphasis on Mary is at the root of this disturbing statistic…”
If your statistics are correct, is 91% “far worse” than 89%? This is just a blatant attack on Catholics, and it displays a misunderstanding of Catholic teaching on Mary.
Mary is dead and her spirit is in heaven. Your family is alive and can still physically hear you and be with you. The scriptures, especially in the New Testament, encourage Christian’s to pray for their brothers and sisters. How can a dead person, Jesus’ mother or not, hear you? Heaven is about worshipping at the throne of God where there is no sorrow or weeping, unconcerned of what is happening to you on earth. Jesus’ spirit, the Holy Spirit, is here on earth to comfort us and as well as other Christian brothers and sisters, which is why we are called to act like Jesus - Jesus, His Spirit can only comfort us. And when we pray, we pray only to Jesus for He is God and the only one who can intercede for us to Father God in heaven. God appointed Jesus as intercessor, not Mary or any other dead saint.
I’ll be praying for you, brother, that
Jesus will have mercy and open your heart and your eyes. ♥️🙏🏻
The Bible does teach that the saints are alive. Consider, for example, that Jesus teaches that the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob is “not God not of the dead, but of the living” (Matt. 22:32; see also 22:23-33). In addition, Moses and Elijah are alive to Jesus at the Transfiguration and converse with him, even though their earthly deaths had occurred many years before (see Matt. 17:1-8).
J Rho and Jim McCraigh, do you believe in a God of the living, or do you believe in a God of the dead?
Regarding the issue of Mary being dead, I sure hope she is not. When we die, it is our bodies that die. Fortunately our souls live even after the body dies. I believe that life continues after the body dies. That is the promise of Jesus; that we will have eternal life. Does that mean a dead person is truly dead? Does life end when the body dies?
J Rho, thank you for the prayers. We can all certainly use them!
I’m confused by something you say. You say that because our family is alive they can pray for you. Does that mean it is ok to ask them to pray for you?
You say that 89% of Protestants don’t believe in the Trinity, and that 91% of Catholics don’t believe in the Trinity, then you speculate that the 2% difference may be due to Catholic teaching on Mary. Can you please explain why you think this may be true? As a Catholic who is well-versed in my faith, I don’t see how Mary has anything to do with the Trinity, other than the obvious fact that she was (is) Jesus’ mother.
Catholics literally pray to Mary. Since that is true, would that not undermine the divinity of the trinity? It’s about the FATHER - not the “holy” mother
Also, every Catholic Church I’ve ever been into in the US and globally have her statue/idol everywhere. The focus on Mary is worshipful, if anything. Is that not blasphemy?
You misunderstand Catholic teaching on Mary. She is the mother of Jesus and a Saint in heaven, and therefore she is worthy of honor. Mary is not God or part of the Holy Trinity. We Catholics do not pray to her in the sense of worshiping her; we “pray” to her in the sense of asking her to pray for us.
Think of the old English word “prithee” otherwise said “pray thee.” It is not asking someone to pray as in worship; it is asking someone to do something as in asking for help. In that use of the word “pray” you could say that Catholics “pray” to Mary, but in no sense do we worship Mary. We only ask Mary to pray to God for us.
Thank you for clarifying. But isn’t Jesus the only one who can intercede for us to Father God? Where in scripture does it say for us to ask Mary for anything?
I respond by asking where in Holy Scripture does it say NOT to ask Mary to pray for us?
In fact, I believe we all routinely ask other people to pray for us. At least I do. When I have a bad day I ask my wife to pray for me to have a better day tomorrow. When I have health problems I ask my family to pray for my full recovery. When I have problems at work I ask friends and family to pray for a positive outcome. Etc.
There’s nothing wrong with asking someone else to pray for us, right? If there is them please show me where in Holy Scripture it forbids us to either pray for others or to ask others to pray for us.
That is an excellent question... Blasphemy is saying something derogatory or evil about God, Jesus, or the Holy Spirit. Worshipping Mary is idolatry... putting someone or something ahead of God. Hope this helps.
Chris... Thank you for your comment. As a former Catholic myself, I do fully understand the Catholic position on Mary. Catholic doctrine does recognize the Trinity, but the issue is that MOST Catholics say they don't believe it.
Does this distinguish between actual practicing Catholics from those born Catholic who are functional Nones that just haven’t gotten around to dropping the ‘Catholic’ label?
The Catholics I meet are Trinitarian if they are active in their faith. I haven’t done a systematic polling but that 91% number ain’t real world.
Make’s Luther’s Small Catechism the ultimate means of catechizing the “believers” in your Church. I don’t think he would mind if you put a different cover on it, but the message and the memorization are well-tested applications of God’s Word as Law and Gospel. Try it out and see if I am right!
Nothing new under the sun. Many think they know God just like the Pharisees and scribes and they were against Jesus whom they had studied about in Isaiah. So, it is today. As the bible tells us many proclaim Christ but deny the power. To deny Christ one denies God. To reject the working of the Holy Spirit is to reject God. The Word of God is being fulfilled in all that is happening. Thanks for keeping us informed. God bless you.
I cannot speak for JW but members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints believe Jesus and Holy Spirit are separate beings, not one being. They act as one, but they are seperare beings. Here's our Article of Faith 1:1:
1 We believe in God, the Eternal Father, and in His Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost.
https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/pgp/a-of-f/1?id=p1&lang=eng#p1
The idea of the Trinity was developed by sincere people who were opposed to the Arian idea that Jesus was not God.
The reason however Jesus came to Earth was to reveal the Father:
"All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knows the Son, but the Father; neither knows any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him."
(Mat 11:27)
He also came that we may be made to be Son's of God, as he is:
"That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
And the glory which you gave me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me."
(John 17:21-23)
Tell me Jim, what happens to the "Trinity" when there are many Sons come into Glory? (Heb 2:10)
Christ wants us to be his children, one with him:
friendswithgod.substack…
The problem with the doctrine of the "Trinity" is that it has successfully created great division within the Churches, such that many have been willing to murder others who don't believe in it!
I think murder and the spirit of hatred is a little bit worse than having some trouble believing in something that is not in scripture and is very difficult to understand, so much so that the Catholics state that you can't understand it for it is a MYSTERY which just has to be believed without proof.
We are told to prove all things, and hold fast to that which is good.
The trinity can't be proven, and the fruits of it are not good- all it does is cause division and hatred and self-aggrandisement and disrespect of other peoples sincere beliefs.
"Shockingly, among those who identified as Catholics a stunning 91% stated they do not believe in the doctrine of the Trinity" - where does this metric come from? I cannot find anything from George Barna on this. Earlier Barna research from 2007 indicated that 75% of surveyed adult Catholics affirmed belief in the Trinity. The 91% does not resonate with me because the sign of the cross (an affirmation of the Holy Trinity) is very much a Catholic thing.
The survey came from Arizona Christian University, where Barna consults. See their website at: https://www.arizonachristian.edu/culturalresearchcenter/
Wow! Scary statistics! The same survey showed that only 9% of self professed Christians have a Biblical Worldview. That is hardly one out of ten. We need to do better than that.
I wonder what these 84% think about the words in Genesis, "Let US make man in OUR image." ??
They don't think they have ever read it to have an opinion.
And herein is the problem, ‘self-identified Christians’. In the scriptures, the word ‘Christian’ appears ONLY 3 times. Only 3, and never in the form of self-proclamation. Honestly, it is not that important of a word, in comparison to so much of what is to be considered truly important.
Jim, You say that everything was created by God the Father. I’m not sure if this is being picky, but the apostle John thought it was important to identify the Son, who was with the Father from the beginning, as the creator. From John 1:1 and following..
1 ¶ In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 He was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made.
4 In him was life, and the life was the light of men.
5 The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it.
6 ¶ There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.
7 He came as a witness, to bear witness about the light, that all might believe through him.
8 He was not the light, but came to bear witness about the light.
Jesus is The Word. “All things were made through [him -> The Word -> the light]”.
Is there another passage that I should look at to see this differently?
Good question. We are in agreement... The Father, the Son, and The Holy Spirit are One!
The Apostles’ Creed
I believe in God, the Father almighty,
creator of heaven and earth.
I believe in Jesus Christ, his only Son, our Lord,
who was conceived by the Holy Spirit
and born of the virgin Mary.
He suffered under Pontius Pilate,
was crucified, died, and was buried;
he descended to hell.
The third day he rose again from the dead.
He ascended to heaven
and is seated at the right hand of God the Father almighty.
From there he will come to judge the living and the dead.
I believe in the Holy Spirit,
the holy catholic* church,
the communion of saints,
the forgiveness of sins,
the resurrection of the body,
and the life everlasting. Amen.
*that is, the true Christian church of all times and all places
This accounts for the explosive growth in Traditional Catholic parishes where the Holy Trinity is taught and worshipped.
I personally am weary of being lumped in with nonbelievers in a so-called “Christian survey”. Calling unbelievers “Christians” is wrong, they’re apostates, enemies of God!
Good point... many "self-identify' as Christians when they are clearly not.
Thank you, Jim. Hopefully, your piece is heartbreaking enough to motivate real Christ followers everywhere to share the truth with those around them in their "corner of the world."
Can't say I'm surprised
Wow- that's mind-blowing.
I wonder...
Is it the lack of reading and studying the Bible?
Are Christians causing others to be confused? Where do we point the finger?
So many questions...
A conundrum.
Well, it's Holy Week and Easter is coming.
I don't have the answers to help people understand the Trinity other than to live and lead the way of Jesus.
Without the cross and Jesus, there would be no Christianity.
Without the Holy Spirit coming to live inside believers, we would be totally lost and clueless.
But God!
He knew and created all things.
He gave his only Son to be our Savior- to die the death that every sinner deserves.
To believe right, is to live right.
The path to eternal life is narrow and hard.
Not many will choose it.
For those of us who do, tenacity wins.
The Law reveals our guilt.
The Love reveals God's grace.
The Light reveals our hope.
John 8:12, "I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will never walk in darkness, but will have the light of life."
With my freewill, I choose LIFE🙌
“Shockingly, among those who identified as Catholics a stunning 91% stated they do not believe in the doctrine of the Trinity… far worse than that of the general population. One has to wonder if the Catholic religion’s over-emphasis on Mary is at the root of this disturbing statistic…”
If your statistics are correct, is 91% “far worse” than 89%? This is just a blatant attack on Catholics, and it displays a misunderstanding of Catholic teaching on Mary.
Mary is dead and her spirit is in heaven. Your family is alive and can still physically hear you and be with you. The scriptures, especially in the New Testament, encourage Christian’s to pray for their brothers and sisters. How can a dead person, Jesus’ mother or not, hear you? Heaven is about worshipping at the throne of God where there is no sorrow or weeping, unconcerned of what is happening to you on earth. Jesus’ spirit, the Holy Spirit, is here on earth to comfort us and as well as other Christian brothers and sisters, which is why we are called to act like Jesus - Jesus, His Spirit can only comfort us. And when we pray, we pray only to Jesus for He is God and the only one who can intercede for us to Father God in heaven. God appointed Jesus as intercessor, not Mary or any other dead saint.
I’ll be praying for you, brother, that
Jesus will have mercy and open your heart and your eyes. ♥️🙏🏻
The Bible does teach that the saints are alive. Consider, for example, that Jesus teaches that the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob is “not God not of the dead, but of the living” (Matt. 22:32; see also 22:23-33). In addition, Moses and Elijah are alive to Jesus at the Transfiguration and converse with him, even though their earthly deaths had occurred many years before (see Matt. 17:1-8).
J Rho and Jim McCraigh, do you believe in a God of the living, or do you believe in a God of the dead?
Regarding the issue of Mary being dead, I sure hope she is not. When we die, it is our bodies that die. Fortunately our souls live even after the body dies. I believe that life continues after the body dies. That is the promise of Jesus; that we will have eternal life. Does that mean a dead person is truly dead? Does life end when the body dies?
J Rho, thank you for the prayers. We can all certainly use them!
I’m confused by something you say. You say that because our family is alive they can pray for you. Does that mean it is ok to ask them to pray for you?
Not sure what you are confused about what I said… you are more than welcome to re read my response I posted above. It’s pretty clear.
Is it ok to ask your living family members to pray for you?
Thank you J Rho, you saved me time by outlining a great answer!
You say that 89% of Protestants don’t believe in the Trinity, and that 91% of Catholics don’t believe in the Trinity, then you speculate that the 2% difference may be due to Catholic teaching on Mary. Can you please explain why you think this may be true? As a Catholic who is well-versed in my faith, I don’t see how Mary has anything to do with the Trinity, other than the obvious fact that she was (is) Jesus’ mother.
Catholics literally pray to Mary. Since that is true, would that not undermine the divinity of the trinity? It’s about the FATHER - not the “holy” mother
Also, every Catholic Church I’ve ever been into in the US and globally have her statue/idol everywhere. The focus on Mary is worshipful, if anything. Is that not blasphemy?
You misunderstand Catholic teaching on Mary. She is the mother of Jesus and a Saint in heaven, and therefore she is worthy of honor. Mary is not God or part of the Holy Trinity. We Catholics do not pray to her in the sense of worshiping her; we “pray” to her in the sense of asking her to pray for us.
Think of the old English word “prithee” otherwise said “pray thee.” It is not asking someone to pray as in worship; it is asking someone to do something as in asking for help. In that use of the word “pray” you could say that Catholics “pray” to Mary, but in no sense do we worship Mary. We only ask Mary to pray to God for us.
Thank you for clarifying. But isn’t Jesus the only one who can intercede for us to Father God? Where in scripture does it say for us to ask Mary for anything?
I respond by asking where in Holy Scripture does it say NOT to ask Mary to pray for us?
In fact, I believe we all routinely ask other people to pray for us. At least I do. When I have a bad day I ask my wife to pray for me to have a better day tomorrow. When I have health problems I ask my family to pray for my full recovery. When I have problems at work I ask friends and family to pray for a positive outcome. Etc.
There’s nothing wrong with asking someone else to pray for us, right? If there is them please show me where in Holy Scripture it forbids us to either pray for others or to ask others to pray for us.
That is an excellent question... Blasphemy is saying something derogatory or evil about God, Jesus, or the Holy Spirit. Worshipping Mary is idolatry... putting someone or something ahead of God. Hope this helps.
Ah yes. In retrospect, it is idol worship. Thank you.
And when I say FATHER, I do not mean some pope
Chris... Thank you for your comment. As a former Catholic myself, I do fully understand the Catholic position on Mary. Catholic doctrine does recognize the Trinity, but the issue is that MOST Catholics say they don't believe it.
Does this distinguish between actual practicing Catholics from those born Catholic who are functional Nones that just haven’t gotten around to dropping the ‘Catholic’ label?
The Catholics I meet are Trinitarian if they are active in their faith. I haven’t done a systematic polling but that 91% number ain’t real world.
Make’s Luther’s Small Catechism the ultimate means of catechizing the “believers” in your Church. I don’t think he would mind if you put a different cover on it, but the message and the memorization are well-tested applications of God’s Word as Law and Gospel. Try it out and see if I am right!
Nothing new under the sun. Many think they know God just like the Pharisees and scribes and they were against Jesus whom they had studied about in Isaiah. So, it is today. As the bible tells us many proclaim Christ but deny the power. To deny Christ one denies God. To reject the working of the Holy Spirit is to reject God. The Word of God is being fulfilled in all that is happening. Thanks for keeping us informed. God bless you.