“... yet in the church I would rather speak five words with my understanding, that I may teach others also, than ten thousand words in a tongue.” —1 Corinthians 14:19
The extended context indicates that the gift of tongues (glossolalia) was manifest in believers as a gift of the Holy Spirit—as a sign to unbelievers. The gift of Prophecy (in context, forthtelling scriptural truth) is also mentioned.
So the Church manifests this gift.
Can you help readers see where the gift “ceased” to be given.
That is a great question... The best way I can think to answer that is let Tom Pennington, the pastor of our church, speak to it beyond any doubt at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QMrk6UwXxOs at 34:34 into the video.
While my mind is open to considering positions exposited from Scripture, currently I would be considered a continuationist.
If curious, here is one clip of Pastor Chuck Smith on the contemporary manifestation of tongues in the Church. Very practical and non sensational, and resulting in another soul being added to the Church—which is consistent w/the mission of the Church and members of the Body of Christ.
Start at 52:25. The recounting of the woman who spoke in French (a known language to those who speak French/ an unknown tongue to those who do not), and the subsequent conversion of another woman who saw the Gift of tongues/interpretation manifested (”a sign to unbelievers”) and received Christ as a result.
It seems to me that much of the romantic emotionalism you mention has been a key aspect many American Christian churches since the Second Great Awakening, from, say, the 1830s onward. Mormonism, Christian Science, the Seventh Day Adventists, Dispensationalism, Pentecostalism, tent/street preaching, and endless revivals I would include as part of this awakening. Perhaps the Second Great Awakening has never really ended and its individualist tenets are especially popular since the entirety of traditional western/American culture is under attack, and institutional Christianity is but a distant memory to some, or an alien religion to many "new arrivals" alive now.
Thanks Jim I will put God TV on my Radar. I don’t believe I have heard of this organization. Just the same I will stay far from them. Yes NAR is leading many astray .
As far as your mention of who to listen to Amir, Gary are great. Boddie is anti Israel from my understanding so he is a no no to me . I believe he thinks the church has replaced Israel, correct me if I am wrong. Thanks again for keeping us informed 😁
The Church (NT Greek: ecclesia, called out ones) are now the Israel of God. There is the current State of Israel, and the Israel of God. After Christ Jesus completed His mission, there are no longer any promises to the nation of Israel--unless for individuals who come to a saving knowledge of Christ.
“O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets and stonest them that are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
In 70 A.D. the Temple in Jerusalem was destroyed. The quote you used by Jesus was in reference to that event coming in the near future. : throughout BIBLICAL HISTORY Israel has been disciplined for turning away from God including a previous destruction of the Temple at Jerusalem. Yet, Through the Showing forth of God's grace and mercy enabling repentance and restoration to fallen man, Israel been used mightily of Him to illustrate his powerful workings with people throughout history.
Nathan's comment here is totally valid. The New Testament Scriptures that he is referencing clearly indicate that God is not finished with Israel. Search them out yourself with a desire to learn and understand His Truth and you will see that this is so
Oh my GOD!... there it is, just as George Lucas illustrated in THX-1138. Geezus-TV™...and AI leads the way to the new normal religious format...[perhaps a black out is the only way to get through this dark period in human history.]
Jim, you had me on your alternative list until I saw John "If you're not the Elect, don't even bother trying" MacArthur. Some points of Calvinism are valid, some aren't. Let's stick with proper hermeneutics and we will all, hopefully, find the truth of Scripture. I write this with no malice, Jim, though it may sound as such. I just can't see the Lord foreordaining our destinies. Maybe He does, and I'm just naive..or maybe He does open everyones eyes to the chance of eternal life..?
Actually, I mostly agree with you. I don't believe Macarthur is 100% Calvinistic. Since he preaches the whole of scripture he also covers Arminianism as well.
I know, Jim..I just dislike the whole "I am of Paul, I am of Appolos" thing..Calvin, Arminius...God has given wisdom to many theologians, but in the end, we're not going to have them standing next to us arguing our case whether it be at the Great White Throne or the Judgement Beam..
I agree that there are many false teachers and leaders in the church, teaching false doctrines that people need to be aware of. I follow some of the same people you recommended, such as Amir Tsarfati, whose Telegram channel and YouTube videos I watch daily.
But, as a brother in the Lord, I feel responsible to address some of the other statements you made in your email.
1. You wrote, "The Bible records that only Moses (Exodus 4:1-8), and Elijah (1 Kings 17:1; 18:24) were able to perform miracles to confirm their God-given authority."
- Yes, God did give Moses power to do signs to confirm his authority to the hard-hearted, unbelieving Jews in Egypt. But the 1 Kings reference doesn't say God gave Elijah power to perform miracles in order to confirm his God-given authority. Rather, Elijah performed signs by prayer, hearing from God, and then acting in faith, just as other saints did.
- What about all the other old testament saints who performed miracles? Didn't their signs confirm their God-given authority?
-- Joshua commanded the sun to stand still
-- Elisha did twice as many signs as Elijah
-- Samuel called down rain and thunder
-- Daniel performed many supernatural signs
- In the New Testament, Jesus sent His disciples out, commanding them to perform authenticating signs. He told them to heal the sick, raise the dead, etc. (Mt 10:8, Lk 10:9)
- The two witnesses of Rev 11 will perform signs that confirm their authority.
2. You wrote, "After Pentecost, the apostles were also given the ability to speak in tongues and the power to heal as signs to unbelieving Jews (Acts 4:10-16). Once their work was finished, the need for authenticating signs no longer existed."
- Really? Why was it needed for the original apostles, but not now? You said the signs were for unbelieving Jews.
-- Acts 4:10-16 doesn't say the purpose of the spiritual gifts of tongues and healing were for signs to unbelieving Jews.
-- There's no verse in the Bible that says the need for authenticating signs no longer exists.
--- Just because we don't see many signs in the modern day doesn't mean there's no need for them, or they're not available to believers today.
--- Why don't we see Christians performing supernatural signs today? I believe it's primarily due to carnal unbelief. Unbelief plagued the minds of the original apostles, as well as the masses of people Jesus ministered to.
---- In Mt 13:58 Jesus himself could not do many signs because of the peoples' unbelief.
---- Mk 6:6 Jesus marveled because of their unbelief
---- Mk 16:14 After His resurrection, Jesus rebuked the disciples because of their unbelief and hardness of heart
3. You wrote, "Scripture is clear that the miracle gifts of tongues and healing ceased at the end of the Apostolic Age. That time ended with the first-century deaths of the original apostles and Paul, who were the only ones in the New Testament church ever directly given those gifts by Christ Himself. While God can and still performs miracles today, He no longer uses individual human beings to perform miraculous signs."
- Where in scripture is it clear that any of the spiritual gifts ceased at the end of the apostolic age? What verses can you quote? I can't think of any verses that make this statement.
-- No Bible books were written after the last apostle died, so how would we know if any spiritual gifts ceased after the first century?
- The 'apostolic age' is a manmade religious construct. It's not in the Bible.
-- It's true that Jesus and the apostles laid the foundation for the church (Eph 2:20, Rev 21:14), but there's no scriptural justification for creating a dividing line between them and us, between their time and ours. Such thinking creates this false dichotomy:
--- During the apostolic age they had power to do supernatural signs.
--- But today, the right to exercise supernatural gifts no longer applies. God helps us through natural means to fulfill the great commission. So, since we're not able to do supernatural signs, God won't judge us for not doing them.
---- The parable of the talents comes to mind here.
-- Eph 4:11-13 says the fivefold ministry was given to bring the church into "mature manhood, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ." Until that's done, the fivefold ministry is needed. This means God is still today giving apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors and teachers to the church.
- The original apostles and Paul were not the only ones to speak in tongues, or to be given this gift by Christ himself.
-- It was a normal experience for Gentile believers to exercise this gift when they received the Holy Spirit. See Acts 10:46, 19:6, and 1 Cor 14.
-- Or, are you making a difference between "Christ himself" from the Holy Spirit? If so, why?
--- In Rom 8:9 and 1 Pet 1:11 the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of Christ
- You believe God still performs miracles today, but He no longer uses individual human beings to perform miraculous signs?
-- How does God do these miracles, if not through the Body of Christ?
-- How do you reconcile this belief with the supernatural events working through Christians in the Book of Acts, and in Paul's teachings about the Holy Spirit working through the Body of Christ? Or did those thing happened then because they were still in the 'apostolic age?'
4. You wrote, "Both Ephesians and Romans contain verses detailing the gifts of the Spirit but do not mention the miracle gifts."
- You're correct, the gifts listed in Ephesians and Romans are often classified as roles, as opposed to the ecstatic gifts of tongues, interpretation, prophecy, and visions in 1 Cor 12 and 14, Acts 2:17, and 2 Cor 12:2.
- But it's not logical to argue that ecstatic gifts ceased because they're not listed in Romans and Ephesians. By that logic, I don't think the Second Coming of Christ is discussed in Romans and Ephesians either.
As you can tell, I am not a cessationist. I believe all the Biblical gifts are still being issued by the Holy Spirit within the Body of Christ, to bring us into full unity and maturity, unto the fulness of the stature of Jesus Himself.
As a charismatic disciple since 1973, I've personally witnessed the misuse and abuse of apostleship, prophecy, visions, and other ecstatic gifts. But that's not a good reason to 'throw the baby out with the bathwater.' Instead, let us do as Paul exhorted us in 1 Cor 12:31. Let us earnestly seek the higher gifts.
This issue here is one of divine revelation. If someone says that God is still speaking through prophets and apostles then it follows that He is not finished speaking… that the Bible and the Gospel are not enough and people don't have everything they need in the Word of God… but somehow need some miraculous word of knowledge or divine experience to truly be a Christian.
Yes, I agree that there are spiritual gifts alive today… but those are not the same as the miraculous gifts we’re discussing here.
So often, the words of the preachers they trust as prophets and apostles make false promises of healing or prophesies that don’t come true. (Bethel is an excellent case in point.)
Continuationism (the opposite of Cessationism) rejects fact that the Word of God as being sufficient …
18 I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this scroll: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to that person the plagues described in this scroll. 19 And if anyone takes words away from this scroll of prophecy, God will take away from that person any share in the tree of life and in the Holy City, which are described in this scroll. (Revelation 22:18-29)
14 I know that everything God does will endure forever; nothing can be added to it and nothing taken from it. God does it so that people will fear him. 15 Whatever is has already been, and what will be has been before; and God will call the past to account (Ecclesiastes 3:14-15)
I 100% agree that the Bible, the written Word of God (the logos) is complete, and nobody can add or subtract from it.
But disciples, from both the old and new covenants, aren't supposed to be limited to the written word and our own intelligence for revelation and guidance. God is alive, and His spiritual revelation is required for us to understand the Bible. Here are some verses that prove this point:
In the Old Testament:
- Isa 30:21 says, "And your ears shall hear a word behind you, saying, “This is the way, walk in it,” when you turn to the right or when you turn to the left."
In the New Testament:
- Generally, the logos is the scripture. In Mark 4:14, "The sower sows the logos." The logos doesn't change.
- But, rhema is when the Living God's Spirit speaks to our spirit, giving us faith to receive an answer to prayer, a fresh understanding, a dream, a word of knowledge, or otherwise communicates to us. Here are some verses that show the importance of listening for and receiving God's rhema in our daily walk:
-- In Matthew 4:4, "Man does not live by bread alone, but by every rhema that comes from the mouth of God."
-- In Romans 10:17, "So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the rhema of Christ."
-- In Eph 6:17, "and take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the rhema of God"
Our relationship and dependence on the Holy Spirit is fundamental to our growth as a disciple. He is our divine teacher and guide. In fact, 1 Cor 2:9-14 says that without the Spirit's help, it's impossible for our natural mind to understand the things of God.
- "But, as it is written, 'What no eye has seen, nor ear heard, nor the heart of man imagined, what God has prepared for those who love him'— these things God has revealed to us through the Spirit. For the Spirit searches everything, even the depths of God. For who knows a person's thoughts except the spirit of that person, which is in him? So also no one comprehends the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. Now we have received not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might understand the things freely given us by God. And we impart this in words not taught by human wisdom but taught by the Spirit, interpreting spiritual truths to those who are spiritual. The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned."
- In John 14:26, Jesus said, "the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you."
- John 16:13-15, When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth, for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come. He will glorify me, for he will take what is mine and declare it to you. All that the Father has is mine; therefore I said that he will take what is mine and declare it to you."
Finally, Rom 8:14 tells us, "For all who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God."
Just as the original apostles followed Jesus in His earthly ministry, we are to follow His Spirit today.
The church is “built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets” (Eph. 2:20). There is no apostolic succession in the NT, and thus the gift of apostleship has ceased. When James the apostle is put to death in Acts 12:2, he is not replaced as an apostle. Paul is the “last” apostle of Jesus Christ (1 Cor. 15:8), and there have been no apostles since Paul. The apostles were necessary in the first generation to testify to Jesus Christ since the Christian movement was new. Now that the foundation has been laid, the days of the apostles have ended. We have the faith handed down to us once-for-all, as noted above (Jude 3; Heb. 1:2).
Both apostles and prophets laid the foundation for the church, and since the foundation is established, there are no prophets speaking the authoritative word of God today. We look to Scripture as our final and sole authority.
I agree that there are no prophets speaking "the authoritative word of God today," if what you mean by 'authoritative word' is that their prophecies have the same weight as scripture. This is the pit both Pharisees and Roman Catholics fell into--respecting their oral traditions as equal to, or above, the Bible. I'm sure we agree the written Word of God, in its original languages, is infallible. It's our written standard of truth, by which we must measure all doctrines and utterances. We must not add to, or take away from it.
However, I disagree with your assertion that the gifts of apostles and prophets, etc., passed away after the first apostles died. That's an assumption from silence that's not supported by scripture. You referred to 1 Cor 15:8. In context, this verse refers to Paul being the last of the original apostles that the resurrected Jesus appeared to. He wasn't saying he was the last man who would ever be appointed as an apostle.
In 1 Cor 14, Paul gave us directions for testing prophecies in the ekklesia. According to the Bible, the gifts of the Spirit are God-given for the edification of the Body. So, rather than rejecting these edifying gifts, thus denying the church their benefit, we simply need to follow the apostle's direction on how to manage them.
Thank you so very much for standing your ground on this. My comment wasn't needed after reading all of yours. Thanks for being the Berean here on this thread. I get so tired of the same argument I hear it in my current Church. 😞
About the diversity of gifts—that did not end w/the Apostle. Paul in Corinthians is explicit that the gifts, including tongues/interpretation, and healing are manifest in the Church by the work of the Spirit.
“There are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit. There are differences of ministries, but the same Lord. And there are diversities of activities, but it is the same God who works all in all. But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to each one for the profit of all: for to one is given the word of wisdom through the Spirit, to another the word of knowledge through the same Spirit, to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healings by the same Spirit, to another the working of miracles, to another prophecy, to another discerning of spirits, to another different kinds of tongues, to another the interpretation of tongues. But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually as He wills.”
Thank you for taking the time to comment… Please consider the fact that the belief the New Testament miraculous gifts have ceased was the historical view of the mainstream church from the death of the Apostle John up until about the year 1900. Since then, the Pentecostal and Charismatic movements have worked to assert that all the sign gifts miraculous gifts are back including prophets, apostles, tongues, and healing etc.
Yes, I agree that there are spiritual gifts alive today… but those are not the same as the miraculous gifts we’re discussing here.
This issue here is one of divine revelation. If someone says that God is still speaking through prophets and apostles then it follows that He is not finished speaking… that the Bible and the Gospel are not enough and people don't have everything they need in the Word of God… but somehow need some miraculous word of knowledge or divine experience to truly be a Christian.
So often, the words of the preachers they trust as prophets and apostles make false promises of healing or prophesies that don’t come true. (Bethel is an excellent case in point.)
18 I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this scroll: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to that person the plagues described in this scroll. 19 And if anyone takes words away from this scroll of prophecy, God will take away from that person any share in the tree of life and in the Holy City, which are described in this scroll. (Revelation 22:18-29)
Thanks Jim for sharing, I was not familiar with God TV, you bring out some insightful points and provide some good guidance. Good to be Berean like in our discernment of teachers, ministries, and even churches. "Now the Berean Jews were of more noble character than those in Thessalonica, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true." - Acts 17:11
The false prophets.
For sure Bert!
Love Gary Hamrick.
A citation and question:
“... yet in the church I would rather speak five words with my understanding, that I may teach others also, than ten thousand words in a tongue.” —1 Corinthians 14:19
The extended context indicates that the gift of tongues (glossolalia) was manifest in believers as a gift of the Holy Spirit—as a sign to unbelievers. The gift of Prophecy (in context, forthtelling scriptural truth) is also mentioned.
So the Church manifests this gift.
Can you help readers see where the gift “ceased” to be given.
Thanks, Jim.
That is a great question... The best way I can think to answer that is let Tom Pennington, the pastor of our church, speak to it beyond any doubt at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QMrk6UwXxOs at 34:34 into the video.
Watched your pastor’s case for cessationism.
While my mind is open to considering positions exposited from Scripture, currently I would be considered a continuationist.
If curious, here is one clip of Pastor Chuck Smith on the contemporary manifestation of tongues in the Church. Very practical and non sensational, and resulting in another soul being added to the Church—which is consistent w/the mission of the Church and members of the Body of Christ.
Start at 52:25. The recounting of the woman who spoke in French (a known language to those who speak French/ an unknown tongue to those who do not), and the subsequent conversion of another woman who saw the Gift of tongues/interpretation manifested (”a sign to unbelievers”) and received Christ as a result.
https://youtu.be/9VHQO7IWPyE?feature=shared
Amir Tsarfati is a faithful servant of Christ! I am grateful for Gary Hamrick’s faithfulness to the Lord also!❤️
It seems to me that much of the romantic emotionalism you mention has been a key aspect many American Christian churches since the Second Great Awakening, from, say, the 1830s onward. Mormonism, Christian Science, the Seventh Day Adventists, Dispensationalism, Pentecostalism, tent/street preaching, and endless revivals I would include as part of this awakening. Perhaps the Second Great Awakening has never really ended and its individualist tenets are especially popular since the entirety of traditional western/American culture is under attack, and institutional Christianity is but a distant memory to some, or an alien religion to many "new arrivals" alive now.
Well said!
Thanks Jim I will put God TV on my Radar. I don’t believe I have heard of this organization. Just the same I will stay far from them. Yes NAR is leading many astray .
As far as your mention of who to listen to Amir, Gary are great. Boddie is anti Israel from my understanding so he is a no no to me . I believe he thinks the church has replaced Israel, correct me if I am wrong. Thanks again for keeping us informed 😁
Maranatha
The Church (NT Greek: ecclesia, called out ones) are now the Israel of God. There is the current State of Israel, and the Israel of God. After Christ Jesus completed His mission, there are no longer any promises to the nation of Israel--unless for individuals who come to a saving knowledge of Christ.
God is far from finish with Israel
He will pour out his Spirit on Israel in the Tribulation & and 1/3 will be saved….
“O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets and stonest them that are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
"Behold, your house is left unto you desolate."
In 70 A.D. the Temple in Jerusalem was destroyed. The quote you used by Jesus was in reference to that event coming in the near future. : throughout BIBLICAL HISTORY Israel has been disciplined for turning away from God including a previous destruction of the Temple at Jerusalem. Yet, Through the Showing forth of God's grace and mercy enabling repentance and restoration to fallen man, Israel been used mightily of Him to illustrate his powerful workings with people throughout history.
Nathan's comment here is totally valid. The New Testament Scriptures that he is referencing clearly indicate that God is not finished with Israel. Search them out yourself with a desire to learn and understand His Truth and you will see that this is so
Catherine, Thank you for this clarification...
I have never heard Voddie claim the Church will replace Israel...
He also doesn't believe in the rapture of the Church. Other than that, the brother is awesome.
I have.
Possibly my mistake .
Oh my GOD!... there it is, just as George Lucas illustrated in THX-1138. Geezus-TV™...and AI leads the way to the new normal religious format...[perhaps a black out is the only way to get through this dark period in human history.]
Thankfully, I have not had a TV in my home in over 20 years. I do not miss it at all.
Jim, you had me on your alternative list until I saw John "If you're not the Elect, don't even bother trying" MacArthur. Some points of Calvinism are valid, some aren't. Let's stick with proper hermeneutics and we will all, hopefully, find the truth of Scripture. I write this with no malice, Jim, though it may sound as such. I just can't see the Lord foreordaining our destinies. Maybe He does, and I'm just naive..or maybe He does open everyones eyes to the chance of eternal life..?
Actually, I mostly agree with you. I don't believe Macarthur is 100% Calvinistic. Since he preaches the whole of scripture he also covers Arminianism as well.
I know, Jim..I just dislike the whole "I am of Paul, I am of Appolos" thing..Calvin, Arminius...God has given wisdom to many theologians, but in the end, we're not going to have them standing next to us arguing our case whether it be at the Great White Throne or the Judgement Beam..
Sound edification. Thanks.
Thank you Kevin!
Jim,
I agree that there are many false teachers and leaders in the church, teaching false doctrines that people need to be aware of. I follow some of the same people you recommended, such as Amir Tsarfati, whose Telegram channel and YouTube videos I watch daily.
But, as a brother in the Lord, I feel responsible to address some of the other statements you made in your email.
1. You wrote, "The Bible records that only Moses (Exodus 4:1-8), and Elijah (1 Kings 17:1; 18:24) were able to perform miracles to confirm their God-given authority."
- Yes, God did give Moses power to do signs to confirm his authority to the hard-hearted, unbelieving Jews in Egypt. But the 1 Kings reference doesn't say God gave Elijah power to perform miracles in order to confirm his God-given authority. Rather, Elijah performed signs by prayer, hearing from God, and then acting in faith, just as other saints did.
- What about all the other old testament saints who performed miracles? Didn't their signs confirm their God-given authority?
-- Joshua commanded the sun to stand still
-- Elisha did twice as many signs as Elijah
-- Samuel called down rain and thunder
-- Daniel performed many supernatural signs
- In the New Testament, Jesus sent His disciples out, commanding them to perform authenticating signs. He told them to heal the sick, raise the dead, etc. (Mt 10:8, Lk 10:9)
- The two witnesses of Rev 11 will perform signs that confirm their authority.
2. You wrote, "After Pentecost, the apostles were also given the ability to speak in tongues and the power to heal as signs to unbelieving Jews (Acts 4:10-16). Once their work was finished, the need for authenticating signs no longer existed."
- Really? Why was it needed for the original apostles, but not now? You said the signs were for unbelieving Jews.
-- Acts 4:10-16 doesn't say the purpose of the spiritual gifts of tongues and healing were for signs to unbelieving Jews.
-- There's no verse in the Bible that says the need for authenticating signs no longer exists.
--- Just because we don't see many signs in the modern day doesn't mean there's no need for them, or they're not available to believers today.
--- Why don't we see Christians performing supernatural signs today? I believe it's primarily due to carnal unbelief. Unbelief plagued the minds of the original apostles, as well as the masses of people Jesus ministered to.
---- In Mt 13:58 Jesus himself could not do many signs because of the peoples' unbelief.
---- Mk 6:6 Jesus marveled because of their unbelief
---- Mk 16:14 After His resurrection, Jesus rebuked the disciples because of their unbelief and hardness of heart
3. You wrote, "Scripture is clear that the miracle gifts of tongues and healing ceased at the end of the Apostolic Age. That time ended with the first-century deaths of the original apostles and Paul, who were the only ones in the New Testament church ever directly given those gifts by Christ Himself. While God can and still performs miracles today, He no longer uses individual human beings to perform miraculous signs."
- Where in scripture is it clear that any of the spiritual gifts ceased at the end of the apostolic age? What verses can you quote? I can't think of any verses that make this statement.
-- No Bible books were written after the last apostle died, so how would we know if any spiritual gifts ceased after the first century?
- The 'apostolic age' is a manmade religious construct. It's not in the Bible.
-- It's true that Jesus and the apostles laid the foundation for the church (Eph 2:20, Rev 21:14), but there's no scriptural justification for creating a dividing line between them and us, between their time and ours. Such thinking creates this false dichotomy:
--- During the apostolic age they had power to do supernatural signs.
--- But today, the right to exercise supernatural gifts no longer applies. God helps us through natural means to fulfill the great commission. So, since we're not able to do supernatural signs, God won't judge us for not doing them.
---- The parable of the talents comes to mind here.
-- Eph 4:11-13 says the fivefold ministry was given to bring the church into "mature manhood, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ." Until that's done, the fivefold ministry is needed. This means God is still today giving apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors and teachers to the church.
- The original apostles and Paul were not the only ones to speak in tongues, or to be given this gift by Christ himself.
-- It was a normal experience for Gentile believers to exercise this gift when they received the Holy Spirit. See Acts 10:46, 19:6, and 1 Cor 14.
-- Or, are you making a difference between "Christ himself" from the Holy Spirit? If so, why?
--- In Rom 8:9 and 1 Pet 1:11 the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of Christ
- You believe God still performs miracles today, but He no longer uses individual human beings to perform miraculous signs?
-- How does God do these miracles, if not through the Body of Christ?
-- How do you reconcile this belief with the supernatural events working through Christians in the Book of Acts, and in Paul's teachings about the Holy Spirit working through the Body of Christ? Or did those thing happened then because they were still in the 'apostolic age?'
4. You wrote, "Both Ephesians and Romans contain verses detailing the gifts of the Spirit but do not mention the miracle gifts."
- You're correct, the gifts listed in Ephesians and Romans are often classified as roles, as opposed to the ecstatic gifts of tongues, interpretation, prophecy, and visions in 1 Cor 12 and 14, Acts 2:17, and 2 Cor 12:2.
- But it's not logical to argue that ecstatic gifts ceased because they're not listed in Romans and Ephesians. By that logic, I don't think the Second Coming of Christ is discussed in Romans and Ephesians either.
As you can tell, I am not a cessationist. I believe all the Biblical gifts are still being issued by the Holy Spirit within the Body of Christ, to bring us into full unity and maturity, unto the fulness of the stature of Jesus Himself.
As a charismatic disciple since 1973, I've personally witnessed the misuse and abuse of apostleship, prophecy, visions, and other ecstatic gifts. But that's not a good reason to 'throw the baby out with the bathwater.' Instead, let us do as Paul exhorted us in 1 Cor 12:31. Let us earnestly seek the higher gifts.
God Bless you brother,
Tom
aka Maj Tom, DMin
Tom@thomasnoss.com
This issue here is one of divine revelation. If someone says that God is still speaking through prophets and apostles then it follows that He is not finished speaking… that the Bible and the Gospel are not enough and people don't have everything they need in the Word of God… but somehow need some miraculous word of knowledge or divine experience to truly be a Christian.
Yes, I agree that there are spiritual gifts alive today… but those are not the same as the miraculous gifts we’re discussing here.
So often, the words of the preachers they trust as prophets and apostles make false promises of healing or prophesies that don’t come true. (Bethel is an excellent case in point.)
Continuationism (the opposite of Cessationism) rejects fact that the Word of God as being sufficient …
18 I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this scroll: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to that person the plagues described in this scroll. 19 And if anyone takes words away from this scroll of prophecy, God will take away from that person any share in the tree of life and in the Holy City, which are described in this scroll. (Revelation 22:18-29)
14 I know that everything God does will endure forever; nothing can be added to it and nothing taken from it. God does it so that people will fear him. 15 Whatever is has already been, and what will be has been before; and God will call the past to account (Ecclesiastes 3:14-15)
I 100% agree that the Bible, the written Word of God (the logos) is complete, and nobody can add or subtract from it.
But disciples, from both the old and new covenants, aren't supposed to be limited to the written word and our own intelligence for revelation and guidance. God is alive, and His spiritual revelation is required for us to understand the Bible. Here are some verses that prove this point:
In the Old Testament:
- Isa 30:21 says, "And your ears shall hear a word behind you, saying, “This is the way, walk in it,” when you turn to the right or when you turn to the left."
In the New Testament:
- Generally, the logos is the scripture. In Mark 4:14, "The sower sows the logos." The logos doesn't change.
- But, rhema is when the Living God's Spirit speaks to our spirit, giving us faith to receive an answer to prayer, a fresh understanding, a dream, a word of knowledge, or otherwise communicates to us. Here are some verses that show the importance of listening for and receiving God's rhema in our daily walk:
-- In Matthew 4:4, "Man does not live by bread alone, but by every rhema that comes from the mouth of God."
-- In Romans 10:17, "So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the rhema of Christ."
-- In Eph 6:17, "and take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the rhema of God"
Our relationship and dependence on the Holy Spirit is fundamental to our growth as a disciple. He is our divine teacher and guide. In fact, 1 Cor 2:9-14 says that without the Spirit's help, it's impossible for our natural mind to understand the things of God.
- "But, as it is written, 'What no eye has seen, nor ear heard, nor the heart of man imagined, what God has prepared for those who love him'— these things God has revealed to us through the Spirit. For the Spirit searches everything, even the depths of God. For who knows a person's thoughts except the spirit of that person, which is in him? So also no one comprehends the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. Now we have received not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might understand the things freely given us by God. And we impart this in words not taught by human wisdom but taught by the Spirit, interpreting spiritual truths to those who are spiritual. The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned."
- In John 14:26, Jesus said, "the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you."
- John 16:13-15, When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth, for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come. He will glorify me, for he will take what is mine and declare it to you. All that the Father has is mine; therefore I said that he will take what is mine and declare it to you."
Finally, Rom 8:14 tells us, "For all who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God."
Just as the original apostles followed Jesus in His earthly ministry, we are to follow His Spirit today.
I think God expects and deserves more than being a couch potato and watching tv.
You are so right!
“Scripture is clear that the miracle gifts of tongues and healing ceased at the end of the Apostolic Age.”
Agree w/you on NAR, Bethel, Hillsong, etc. Can you cite specific verses on cessation?
Site the scriptures where these gifts ceased, if it is so clear.
1 Corinthians 13:8-10 is probably the most applicable one.
The church is “built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets” (Eph. 2:20). There is no apostolic succession in the NT, and thus the gift of apostleship has ceased. When James the apostle is put to death in Acts 12:2, he is not replaced as an apostle. Paul is the “last” apostle of Jesus Christ (1 Cor. 15:8), and there have been no apostles since Paul. The apostles were necessary in the first generation to testify to Jesus Christ since the Christian movement was new. Now that the foundation has been laid, the days of the apostles have ended. We have the faith handed down to us once-for-all, as noted above (Jude 3; Heb. 1:2).
Both apostles and prophets laid the foundation for the church, and since the foundation is established, there are no prophets speaking the authoritative word of God today. We look to Scripture as our final and sole authority.
I agree that there are no prophets speaking "the authoritative word of God today," if what you mean by 'authoritative word' is that their prophecies have the same weight as scripture. This is the pit both Pharisees and Roman Catholics fell into--respecting their oral traditions as equal to, or above, the Bible. I'm sure we agree the written Word of God, in its original languages, is infallible. It's our written standard of truth, by which we must measure all doctrines and utterances. We must not add to, or take away from it.
However, I disagree with your assertion that the gifts of apostles and prophets, etc., passed away after the first apostles died. That's an assumption from silence that's not supported by scripture. You referred to 1 Cor 15:8. In context, this verse refers to Paul being the last of the original apostles that the resurrected Jesus appeared to. He wasn't saying he was the last man who would ever be appointed as an apostle.
In 1 Cor 14, Paul gave us directions for testing prophecies in the ekklesia. According to the Bible, the gifts of the Spirit are God-given for the edification of the Body. So, rather than rejecting these edifying gifts, thus denying the church their benefit, we simply need to follow the apostle's direction on how to manage them.
Thank you so very much for standing your ground on this. My comment wasn't needed after reading all of yours. Thanks for being the Berean here on this thread. I get so tired of the same argument I hear it in my current Church. 😞
Have a blessed day.😊🙏
Got that part. No Apostolic succession.
About the diversity of gifts—that did not end w/the Apostle. Paul in Corinthians is explicit that the gifts, including tongues/interpretation, and healing are manifest in the Church by the work of the Spirit.
“There are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit. There are differences of ministries, but the same Lord. And there are diversities of activities, but it is the same God who works all in all. But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to each one for the profit of all: for to one is given the word of wisdom through the Spirit, to another the word of knowledge through the same Spirit, to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healings by the same Spirit, to another the working of miracles, to another prophecy, to another discerning of spirits, to another different kinds of tongues, to another the interpretation of tongues. But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually as He wills.”
I Corinthians 12:4-11
?
Thank you for taking the time to comment… Please consider the fact that the belief the New Testament miraculous gifts have ceased was the historical view of the mainstream church from the death of the Apostle John up until about the year 1900. Since then, the Pentecostal and Charismatic movements have worked to assert that all the sign gifts miraculous gifts are back including prophets, apostles, tongues, and healing etc.
Yes, I agree that there are spiritual gifts alive today… but those are not the same as the miraculous gifts we’re discussing here.
This issue here is one of divine revelation. If someone says that God is still speaking through prophets and apostles then it follows that He is not finished speaking… that the Bible and the Gospel are not enough and people don't have everything they need in the Word of God… but somehow need some miraculous word of knowledge or divine experience to truly be a Christian.
So often, the words of the preachers they trust as prophets and apostles make false promises of healing or prophesies that don’t come true. (Bethel is an excellent case in point.)
18 I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this scroll: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to that person the plagues described in this scroll. 19 And if anyone takes words away from this scroll of prophecy, God will take away from that person any share in the tree of life and in the Holy City, which are described in this scroll. (Revelation 22:18-29)
To be clear, I was focusing on the assertion that the gifts of tongues/interpretation and of healing had somehow evaporated. They have not.
Thanks for responding.
Thanks Jim for sharing, I was not familiar with God TV, you bring out some insightful points and provide some good guidance. Good to be Berean like in our discernment of teachers, ministries, and even churches. "Now the Berean Jews were of more noble character than those in Thessalonica, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true." - Acts 17:11
So good you mentioned the Bereans! We should all be like them...
Perfectly stated!
False prophets are legion.
Is it just me or are they more numerous than ever? Is it the beginning of the Great Falling Away of 2 Thessalonians 2:1-3???